Forum:Power differences in Lovia

Power differences in Lovia 4 februarie 2008 Marius qs.

I want to talk with the UWN about the power differences in Lovia. At this moment, there is not much going wrong there, but it can get worse - which I'm afraid of - so I want to start this discussion. The king, King Dimitri I, has a lot of power. Not only as monarch (he has got already a lot of power as monarch), but also as member of parliament and minister,it's not a good situation right now. There haven't been a lot of difficulties right now, but I'm afraid if we don't change this it WILL get worse. It's like Dimitri's property. The King has written the constitution, the king has a place in government (!) and not only as king! Yes, there is a constitutional monarhy, but the king has too much power. The prime-minister should have most power, not the king, but the man who has been chosen by the people and is representing the people. If a king has too much power, it's going to like as a dictature, it's reminding me of "Ceausescu", who was ruling everything in my country. So I want to ask your support, because the king has too much power for a constitutional monarhy. Marius D. 4 februarie 2008 16:48 (UTC)

Rules for the discussion

Discussion rules Let's talk clean and clever. No fight. If someone starts insulting, he'll be banned for 30 minutes. If he starts insulting for another time, he'll be blocked for 60 minutes, etc. Alexandru dp. 7 februarie 2008 18:53 (UTC) This discussion is held to get the opinions of most UWN-citizens. The these is: Do we want a kingdom - with a king with much power - in our union? So we're not talking about a future revolution in Lovia!

Discussion

I, vice president of Adlibita, grant my support to Marius. Like he said, it isn't really bad right now, but when Lovia is getting more and more people, it will become a problem! The king has too much power, and that's nothing good at all.. Alexandru dp. 4 februarie 2008 16:48 (UTC)

In all honesty, I do not think there will be a problem, and if there is one, please remember Lovia is a democracy and in a democracy all citizens (the King included) vote. So, please do not panic as yet. Just wait and see. Also, I would prefer to postpone this discussion till HRH has returned to Lovia and have this discussion in his Kingdom Lovia and in his presence. Lars 4 februarie 2008 17:12 (UTC)

I think that HRH Dimitri I is a good king, and Dimitri is not a person that will catch the power in a country, he is pro-domocratic, So Lovia is NOT in danger.Bob I 5 februarie 2008 17:04 (UTC)

I agree with Bob. There has been elections for the new king to, there's no need to change anything. Martin^? 5 februarie 2008 20:52 (UTC)

Elections for a king ?? Don't you mean those for the parliament and the government? Alexandru dp. 6 februarie 2008 09:01 (UTC)

I think that Marius is right. In Lovia, the king could do everything what he wants. That's not the way the UWN want. The UWN is founded with democracy in the mind. So I sugest that we hold a voting to decide. Do the people want a monarchy in the democratic UWN? If the result is negative, Lovia have to decide between being a monarchy or being a member of the UWN... --Maarten ^(???) 6 februarie 2008 16:34 (UTC)

Once again, I would suggest to have this in my humble opinion unnecessary discussion Lovia when HRH is present ! Lars 6 februarie 2008 17:38 (UTC)

HRH?? Just say dimi or Dimitri or Neyt. People would starting thinking your "aanbidden" him. He isn't a god or something, just a normal person like Al & me. --Maarten ^(???) 6 februarie 2008 17:44 (UTC)

@Aesopos) I'm sorry, but this discussion should be hold here at the UWN, because Marius asked the whole UWN to talk about it. Do we want such a monarchy in our union? Anyways, Dimitri will participate when he's back. I can't help he's in another country at this moment. Alexandru dp. 6 februarie 2008 18:21 (UTC)

I hope he'll be back soon. I do not like these kind of discussusions whilst someone is absent. Anyway, UWN you want, and UWN it shall be. As long as the person in question is present! Lars 6 februarie 2008 19:44 (UTC)

First of all: we didn't know he wasn't here. Secondly: don't make a problem of it, we'll hear his respons when he's back. Alexandru dp. 6 februarie 2008 20:13 (UTC)

This is a difficult subject... Normally, I'm not used to wait, but this time I'm "devastelaovendjing" (de + vastelaovendj + ing) so let's wait and see. --Oos Wes Ilava (Bès) 7 februarie 2008 15:17 (UTC)

Could you explain what the meaning is of "de vastelaovenj ing"? For the Olandezi, Belgieni, Români, Italieni, etcetera. . Or maybe I'm just too stupid to not understand the meaning of that.. "word" Alexandru dp. 7 februarie 2008 16:37 (UTC)

What about this explanation: 1) de stands for Germany - 2) vastelaovenj stands for some kind of kölsch dialect for the carnival festivities in Germany on the monday - 3) ing stands for bank (formerly BBL). That seems a good start ! Lars 7 februarie 2008 16:51 (UTC)

I hope you'll never found a dictonary, that's the worse explanation ever... --Maarten ^(???) 7 februarie 2008 18:31 (UTC)

Let's not insult each other, I don't want to have a fight.. again.. Alexandru dp. 7 februarie 2008 18:34 (UTC)

My clear opinion

1. I don't know if a monarchy is a bit too old-fashioned for the UWN. Mostly, the king is being seen as the "upper human" in a country. The citizen doesn't see himself as equal to the king. And especially for an English (so international) country it's a pity.
2. The king has definitely too much power. I think he should only be a king, and let his chosen government rule the country (like in nowadays kingdoms). But the king is
   1. and king
   2. and minister
   3. and member of parliament
3. This is definitely too much, and in my eyes, unacceptable. The king has a seat in the government, in the parliament and is monarch of a state. That means his vote is the most important one, everywhere. If he's pro, an important (and relatively big [lovia has only a few inhabitants]) part of the government and the parliament is pro. He's literally, almost the only voice of Lovia. And that as a king! It's not fair towards the people.
4. There has been a vote (which I think is good [and strange ], but don't forget that only a few persons have voted). So next to the discussion about the power of the king, I want to ask this: Does this mean that Dimitri is king, forever? For some years? Does this mean that he'll be king for, how many years he wants to be a king? This monarchy system is too old to use on an online wiki nation site, where you want everyone to be equal. And what if the people don't like you anymore, after a while (for example, a year)? There won't be happening anything, because he's king and can do what he wants.
5. So, in my eyes, there are only a few possible solutions:
   1. King Dimitri gets less power. People and government get more power.
   2. There will be "king elections" in every.. (for example, year?)
   3. Monarchy will be changed into a republic, king gets president

Alexandru dp. 7 februarie 2008 19:53 (UTC)

1. I agree, monarchy might be a bit old-fashioned, but where is HRH to comment on this ?
2. As soon as HRH is present, I will give my thoughts a go. So, still waiting for HRH !

Lars 8 februarie 2008 09:55 (UTC)

Don't get mad on me (dear Lovian people) but my opinion is that Dimitri is a good person but he has some blemishes. he wants to have the power in whatever place he is (including Libertas and Lovia). There was an election for the king (nothing bad) but why...a king?! Why not a president?. Lovia should be an exemple for the wiki-nations. Why should only a family (Neyt?) govern Lovia? Why there couldn't be democratic elections for a leader? This is my disappointment about Lovia and Dimitri.--Marius.deaconu 8 februarie 2008 10:10 (UTC)

Dum anima est, spes est! W88, aub! Lars 8 februarie 2008 10:40 (UTC)

Who is sick, Lars?--Marius.deaconu 8 februarie 2008 13:29 (UTC)

Response

Oh, I'm lucky I was surfing around and saw this forum, otherwise I wouldn't have known it ever!

I want to say some things, responding to your opinions:

1. I started Wikination on my own, later I got much help from others. In the beginning I wanted to (I'm going to be honest) keep control over the country, without the task to rule everything (= the government). A monarchy seemed well fitting: the PM would have the executive power and manage the legislative power. The king would assist him as executive leader. The king, nor the Prime Minister, have anytinh to say about justice, which is better than Libertas (where we almost don't have regulations on this) or other UWNs. Powers are divided in Lovia, quite well I guess.
2. The king is a citizen in Lovia. There are some 'royal' benefits (such as an extra living), but there is no nobility (compare to Libertas and Adlibita please). As the king is a citizen, he can do politics. And as there a not very much users, and I'm still one of the most active ones, it seemed not a bad idea to grant myself the position of Finance (quite boring anyway).
3. About being in Congress: isn't that normal? Many kings preside Congress in this world and even the Belgian king is in fact president of the meetings. To keep peace I made a rule the king is automatically congressman, so there wouldn't be unfair votes. (Kundet u voorstellen? Stemmen voor het congres (de meeste stemmen > Prime Minister) en de koning doet mee. Je zou uit beleefdheid amper kunnen weigeren en als er wel geweigerd zou worde zou de koning daar ook zijn conclusies uit trekken...)
4. I wrote the constitution, that's right. Don't you like it? As I said, I'm just a citizen, a Congressman.
5. Do I abuse my power excessively? Whenever I get too much power, I'll retreat from several positions, that's obvious. Currently, there aren't many people, so I nééd to take some positions.
6. Thanks for your loyalty Lars, Bob, Marti(j)n, the others.
7. About Lars' love for HRH: I wanted to establish a certain degree of respect and dignity in Lovia. I missed (that's personal) a degree of (noem het gerust 'stijfheid') elegance and dignity in Libertas. So in Lovia I started with nice titles and terms, to establish this feeling of [ik kan het niet in het Engels zeggen] waardigheid. [DUTCH] Ik wou dat men voor ouderen, voor mensen iets hoger in positie, eigenlijk voor iedereen meer respect had. Vandaar ook dat HRH en HM, al moet ik toegeven dat dat ook gewoon is om de monarchie toch een klein beetje te benadrukken. Tevens, Lars is het schoolvoorbeeld voor mij is Sir of zelfs Mr. even goed :)
8. Anything else?
9. By the way, I was a bit dissapointed to see this here and now. If you have something to say, a Forum is a great solution. But, of course, it would be nice just saying to me what's of your liver. No big deal, and I see there are even taking precautions by Al, which I appreciate very much. If these precautions would have been taken in Libertas, there wouldn't have happened things like this in which personal assaults were the most usual thing.

I hope I cleared up my humble and perfectly personal view on the things. Yours, Dimitri Noble 12 februarie 2008 20:31 (UTC)

Ok.. a bit clear to me . About the precautions) That's why I support an arbitral court (or how do you want to call it :P) in Libertasu'. Alexandru dp. 12 februarie 2008 20:55 (UTC)

Do you mean a sory of ArbCom like on Pedia? Dimitri Nobilis 13 februarie 2008 12:04 (UTC)

Just see nl:Overleg gebruiker:Geleyns. Another thing, I think, is that on RoWikicity we are a bit closer: I speak on Messenger with all of them, Marius, Mocu, Petru and Tigrul. But of Wikistad I've only got Martijn and Ruben, who never come online (and with who I never talk on MSN). And maybe we just know too little about our personal lives..Alexandru dp. 13 februarie 2008 13:42 (UTC)

You said "A monarchy seemed well fitting: the PM would have the executive power and manage the legislative power. The king would assist him as executive leader. The king, nor the Prime Minister, have anytinh to say about justice, which is better than Libertas (where we almost don't have regulations on this) or other UWNs. Powers are divided in Lovia, quite well I guess.". I reply that i didn't say that the powers are not divided in Lovia, i said that the King has too much power. My opinion is that you shoudn't transform Lovia into a monarchy (you could develop that in a section called History of Lovia or something like this) instead of this for being the founder of Lovia you could be called Dimitri the Bold (or Father of the nation). It sounds fair, isn't? As an ambassador, i should be named His Adlibitan Excellence, but i'm a modest man and i'm sick of that, really! Dimitri, i dont't hate you, i hate your Lovian management . I understood there were elections for the king (Elections for a king!?My dear Dimitri, what marks have you got at history? Don't you know that a kingdom isn't the most democratic form of goverment?) between you and your brother! Somebody else...? No! My dear, when will you understand that a wiki-contry doesn't belong to a single MAN (Family)! It belongs to ist COMMUNITY!--Marius.deaconu 13 februarie 2008 11:59 (EST)

I have no idea what you are talking about, elections for the king? There were never elections, just a referendum, that's something else. I'm sorry to hear this (I don't like the word hate), and I think you're wrong. The real citizens aren't complaining. Not Lars, not Robin, not Yuri, not Arthur, not OWTB, none of them. What we've got here is a situation in which foreigners are complaining about an internal issue, which is not thought of as an issue by the people involved. So, I'm sorry, but I can't change anything.

And please notice: our nation is still developping, and whether I'm king or just a user, I need to make this wiki into a good one. That has nothing to do with my function as king, but with my role as Administrator. Dimitri Nobilis 14 februarie 2008 17:09 (UTC)